Curious case of lost and found cylinders

[viven44]

I posted some issues with Big Blue 2WD in WHYDTYTT but figured it needed its own topic as I had never seen anything like it as it happened all of a sudden and then went away

Now before I start I have to admit that I have been a bad boy.
- Haven't changed plugs or checked compression since I got the truck (~2 years and probably a few thousand miles). No idea how old the plugs were.
- The Walmart Econo SuperTech 10W-40 oil in it a little over a year old and I've driven around 1500 miles in that time frame (most of those miles from around 6 months ago). I haven't had to top off oil, or lost any. In fact it is still near the full mark and the oil color is still reasonable. I know it is in need of an oil change, but not Black or anything.
- Edelbrock 1411 is 2016 Vintage and never been off, so no rebuild or anything yet

Symptoms

- Started truck after about a week
- Truck wasn't happy. Was acting like there was fuel starvation, loss of power.
- Idle RPM low (~500), fuel pressure based on in-line gauge was fine. Exhaust popping upon acceleration and bogging. Both tanks/pumps had the same behavior so I know was not fuel related.
- Cold oil pressure ~75PSI
- Truck would not drive without bogging down
- No strange noises whatsoever from the valve train. Very quiet still.


Diagnosis

- Tried spare ignition module. No help.
- Timing mark hadn't moved, was stable. And upon acceleration I could see the advance working.
- Took off the fuel pump cover and I could see there was slop in the timing chain but <5 degrees so not bad (found it was ~5 degrees slop by moving to known timing location on balancer, and then trying to spin backwards and see how much the timing mark on the balancer moves before the distributor rotor starts moving)

- Did a compression test when engine was cold and was dismayed to find the results below. Compression numbers were without WOT as thats always how i've baselined.

  FRONT
120    110
60      102
70      100
120     80

- Plugs looked fouled, so replaced them

- I looked into the worst cylinders and found this crud. Not sure if this is dirt from removing the plugs or just build up of some kind




- Even with the new plugs the idle rpm was low at about ~540 from its usual ~750.
- Vacuum reading ~15 in-Hg

Cylinders come back to life

- I increased the idle RPM to around 900 just to maybe see if I can even drive the truck. After about 15 seconds, the RPM jumped to 1500 and the throttle wasn't stuck so the only thing that could have happened was those cylinders coming back to life and they did.
- The truck had also warmed up (mostly) by now so not sure if it is coincidence or what.
- Brought back idle down to ~750
- Vacuum reading ~21 in-Hg and stable
- oil pressure still around ~50PSI. When fully warm it normally comes down to ~30PSI.

- Compression tested the low cylinders and all the 3 that were low are now registering over 100 PSI

- There was exhaust popping for maybe 1-2 minutes but even that went away.

- Drove truck around the block and it has more oomph now than it ever has had.

- Here are some pics inside the worst cylinder after it started running




Looking up at the valves





Wanted to share this experience as I have never seen anything like this. All I had to do was replace the plugs. Can fouled plugs present the symptoms above ?

And Jim has said I need to drive my truck more. I humbly agree

[Gary Lewis]

I think you have sticking valves.  Reading down through the compression test I was going to say you should do a leak-down test as a compression test won't always show bad valves.  But reading on I see that those cylinders came to life, and that suggests to me that the valves were sticking open.

I would change oil & filter and put in a quart of something like Rislone.  I've seen it free valves up and quieten lifters.  Can't explain why, but I've seen it work.

[viven44]

Thanks Gary. I couldn't agree more it makes sense the valves were stuck open.

I have never tried Rislone. I assume I will need to use 5 qts oil and 1 qt Rislone. It also looks like the treatment is good until the next oil change.

Edit:

Looks like Rislone recommends 16oz (1/2 quart) and this can stay in the system until the next oil change. The other dosage of 1qt is for severely dirty engines. Looks like if I used 2 bottles (1 qt) then I will need to dump the oil after 100 miles. Not sure if mine is considered severely dirty.

Thinking of starting with 16oz and see how things look

[ArdWrknTrk]

You can use ATF instead of the brand name Rislone.
Does the same thing, and the same as MMO... eats up varnish and keeps things from sticking.

Those views inside your cylinder...
I want to say condensation caused the aluminum piston to grow some mold (or moss! )
Just a little bit of corrosion from sitting too long.
The sticking valves are helped by any type of "top end cylinder lubrication" snake oil (or just ATF)

I'd be looking at my valve seals the next time I had the valve covers off.  💡

I find the easiest way for me to check chain slop is to take the distributor cap off, and move the crank side to side with a 15/16 deep on a breaker bar.
Note the "clocking" of the breaker bar before the rotor changes direction.
This shows how loose your chain is, without having to do anything invasive.

[mat in tn]

this is similar in my first thought. it seems like sticky rings to me. especially if any condensation was allowed. any cylinders that may have had any valve even slightly open would be open to the atmosphere. it only takes humidity for the iron rings to rust and the aluminum to oxidize too.  I would say try some atf in the spark plug holes and let that set and let it try to clean out the ring grooves as gently as possible. freeing them to hold spring tension as much as they want. if they freed up already then you have a great chance of cleaning things further this way. it's much harder once they are well stuck. I have taken down at least four engine this past year from sitting too long and were locked up needing boring to correct. and one 460 that dropped ring pieces as I slipped the pistons out of the block. four pistons from one block with no top rings to speak of.

[ArdWrknTrk]

Are shattered top rings more a sign of seizure, or detonation?

I see melted pistons (above the top ring land) and shattered compression rings as a sign of serious knock or detonation.

[viven44]

Thanks all. I am now paranoid of owning several trucks and keeping up with all of them  Both the friendly mailman and the mechanic at the place I dump oil have been asking about Big Blue for a while.... but I do not have another truck if and when I need to haul lumber or supplies for home repairs.. so I really thought I was going to get screwed today.

I am also guilty of using these trucks for very short trips which probably isn't helping with condensation at all.

Interesting take that that crud is probably a moldy growth.

[ArdWrknTrk]

Condensation in the cylinder is from moist air reaching cool aluminum and iron inside the cylinder.


This is entirely separate from condensation in the oil, which needs extended periods at operating temp to evaporate, and get sucked out the PCV....

[viven44]

Thank Jim, makes sense.. those 2 condensation mechanisms are distinct and pose different problems.
Of the 2, it appears that I am likely seeing the mechanism of moist air reaching metal as my oil is clean.

So basically drive more often..

[ArdWrknTrk]

Yeah, there's nothing wrong with your supertech oil.
You haven't driven enough for sulfur to form acid in the oil pan.

But you do need to keep the rings and valves free.
If it makes you feel better, use MMO or Rislone.
If you're like me, add 1/2 qt/l of ATF with each oil change.
It will help prevent sludge and keep all the internals free and clear.

Although, best is to just keep the juices flowing.
Drive it -at least around the block- every week.

[mat in tn]

certainly broken rings are caused by other things but when full of rust upon removal I can accept that I'm starting over entirely. as is the expectation when taking it apart initially. in this case of the 460 I believe the owner bought a truck which had a much older engine thrown in for the sale/disposal.  I'm STILL waiting on parts for it. freshly machined block, heads, crank all painted along with pan, covers etc. wrapped and waiting. wd40 is well used here!

[ArdWrknTrk]

Nooo!
You mean that WD-40 can be used for something -other than- removing old stickers and silencing squeaky hinges?!?!?

This is a bizarre world where cats and dogs sleep together, and frogs rain from the sky!

[mat in tn]

it was either that or super 77

[ArdWrknTrk]

WD makes it move
Gorilla snot keeps it in place!  🤣

[mat in tn]

when I put something somewhere. that's where I want it to stay. like the damn tv remote.
anybody seen my damn tv remote?

[ArdWrknTrk]

"Anyone seen my glasses?"

Yes, they're on your damn head!  🤣

[mat in tn]

worse if you are looking through them

[BigBrother-84]

ArdWrknTrk wrote

But you do need to keep the rings and valves free.
If it makes you feel better, use MMO or Rislone.
If you're like me, add 1/2 qt/l of ATF with each oil change.
It will help prevent sludge and keep all the internals free and clear.

Although, best is to just keep the juices flowing.
Drive it -at least around the block- every week.

Don’t want to highjack this thread, but seems the good place to ask.

Regular Big Brother’s year mileage doesn’t exceed 2000 miles.

And in winter-salted-roads-time I move Big Bro about once a month (for the manure duty on the farm, so the engine will run no more than 30 minutes).

Quetions:
1- Oil change frequency: Is yearly a good practice or too often?
2- Best time to do it:  Do you suggest to flush oil and pour new at each spring (after a year + static winter), or fall (just before the static winter period)?
3- Should I always put this additive in engine oil, as a good practice?

[ArdWrknTrk]

BigBrother-84 wrote

Quetions:
1- Oil change frequency: Is yearly a good practice or too often?
2- Best time to do it:  Do you suggest to flush oil and pour new at each spring (after a year + static winter), or fall (just before the static winter period)?
3- Should I always put this additive in engine oil, as a good practice?

Best practice would be to run the engine up to operating temperature and let the PCV system do it's job of sucking moisture vapor out of the engine so it doesn't become acid.
Even if you just let it idle for 45 minutes or more, not driving it around, will help get condensation out of the crankcase.

To answer your questions (from MY perspective only)
1) If I knew I was using good high detergent oil and the truck got started weekly, I wouldn't change the oil until it's due on mileage. -I use a 5k OCI with diesel oil-
2) Seasons mean nothing to me, but I don't live in Canada.
I run a heavier oil in summer, but I change more than twice a year due to me actually using my truck.
Last year I tried 10w60 in summer and it got rid of my low pressure at hot idle.
If I were in Canada and periodically started a dead cold engine I would probably use 5 (or even 0!) W 30 in winter.
3) I don't feel there's any need for snake oil today. I have no cats so I can use diesel oil intended for very high oil change intervals that has a lot of detergent to keep sludge from settling out, inside my engine.
This is what ATF or Rislone do.
But I'd rather spend my $ on oil I trust than try to doctor up some cheap oil I don't trust.
(Don't get me wrong, even Supertech oil from Walmart is GOOD oil)

I hope that answers your questions.
Other members are going to have other opinions, swearing by Lucas or some other marketing firm.
Caveat Emptor!

[viven44]

Why diesel ? 15W-40 or 20W-50 ?