The FORD Lounge

[BigBrother-84]

Wow Bill, really impressive model!

[grumpin]

Wow! Very cool!

[85lebaront2]

Still bothering me. I am scheduled for an injection on April 15th at 10:40 AM.

[ArdWrknTrk]

Tax day. How fun!  

[85lebaront2]

Did you catch the time significance?

[ArdWrknTrk]

Yeah, I get it
Next you're gonna tell me it's in room 1099 bld W2

[grumpin]

Hope it works Bill! I had three and no luck.

I have stenosis.

[Clutch47]

Impressive model. I really appreciate attention to detail, and that is good stuff right there.

[Gary Lewis]

Thought y'all might enjoy Motor Trend's 2024 Tesla Cybertruck vs. Rivian R1T vs. Ford F-150 Lightning: The Only Comparison Test You'll Need.

And here's a telling set of charts, which explain why I'm not in the market for an e-truck.  As previously said, when we take Blue we are going for 500+ miles/day.  But these trucks only get about 1/2 of that and then need an hour and a half to over two hours charging to get you the rest of the way.

And towing a really sleek 3000 lb travel trailer cuts that range significantly, to 160 to 200 miles at an average speed of 50 MPG.  So towing Big Blue (~9000 lbs with all the spare parts + trailer) would probably have cut that to 100 miles - if that.

Compare that to towing with Blue where we ran 75 MPH, got 9 MPG, and went 300 miles per tank on our 1000 mile overnight return trip.  We did that trip in about 15 hours with four 20 minute gas stops for an average speed of 67 MPH.  But it looks like an e-truck would need about 10 stops for charging, which would be another 15 to 20 hours.  So with the 13.33 hours of driving at 75 MPH plus 18 hours of charging (the average of the three) the trip would have taken 31 hours.

[mat in tn]

and I can fill my flareside in 5 minutes. cover 600 miles at an average of 75mph. repeat! and this affords me the ability to go see dad and only be away from home for four days. 2k mile round trip.

[ArdWrknTrk]

AGAIN
Your's is the completely wrong use case.
These vehicles are for professionals that would typically work for a larger company.

They come to the shop in the morning, possibly stop at the supply house or lumber yard and go to the job.
That job site might not have power, but the truck does.
Power tools are VERY intermittent.
But we are all grateful that you don't have to listen to a generator running all day or choking on the fumes.
Quitting time, you return to the shop or yard and plug it in.
Operating costs are ridiculously cheap and maintenance is almost non-existent.
No tuneups, oil or filter changes. No cooling system because it's not losing 60+% of its energy as heat from the exhaust and radiator.
With regen, brake pads and rotors last well over 150k mi.
Sure, you still have tires and shocks.
But this is what keeps you attached to the road so it's best to pay attention here.

Also, you have to consider that given how these trucks are supposed to be used, there's no need at all for super fast charging.
A lot of money can be saved with cheaper battery chemistries and charge controllers that don't need to handle 1000+A.

[BigBrother-84]

ArdWrknTrk wrote

With regen, brake pads and rotors last well over 150k mi.

Jim, my 2018 Chevy Volt has little under 95000 miles, and needed the four brakes to be renewed.

I said to my dealer (a friend of mine) that I was really surprised, since I don’t use them often, ‘cause of my «regen driving» method.

His answer: «Yep, that’s why, you don’t use ‘em enough, they rust, and so they worn faster».

Message to EV drivers:  Use your brakes from time to time.

[Gary Lewis]

Yes, mine is the wrong use case for a full EV.  But I don't know that I'm the only one around that uses his/her truck that way.  I know of several that use their trucks similarly to the way I use mine, and an EV would not be appropriate for them - especially the guy that uses his to pull a trailer into the back of beyond to go elk hunting.

In fact, around here there are probably more pickups for personal use than professional use.  Far more.  And for some reason the people who show up to work at the new house being built across the street seem to drive as many cars as they do trucks.

So while I think EV's are a coming thing, and I'm glad that Ford, Rivian, etc are making them so the problems get ironed out, I don't think they are "there" for how many people I know use their pickups.

And Motor Trend's "real world" tests gave me the numbers to really figure that out.

[ArdWrknTrk]

Maybe you entirely missed the "tradesman" moniker?????

There's a reason.
It's not a diesel dually.
Highway miles hauling a trailer (high wind resistance plus no regen braking) is already the worst case scenario for electric.
Yet Tesla is installing more chargers at rest stops throughout the nation.
They are constantly monitored and never seem broken.
Maybe I will stop in Darien this morning and get a picture of the banks of Tesla and the other new EV chargers.
20 minutes in the welcome center using the facilities and grabbing a bite to eat should get your vehicle to 80+% of charge.
If you have an aerodynamic car, that's typically another 225-275 miles, and I would be ready to stretch my legs after 4+ hours of driving.

[Gary Lewis]

I'm talking about pickups, not aerodynamic cars.  And my point is that fully-electric pickups aren't even close to being capable of doing what many that I know do with their trucks.  Maybe they are for tradesmen, and I can see that.

As for "20 minutes in the welcome center ... should get your vehicle to 80+% of charge", that's not what Motor Trend found.  Their chart shows 15 minutes to get you from 68 to 94 miles.  So 20 minutes might get you 90 to 125 miles, which is about a 50% charge.

[85lebaront2]

Jim, we even have Tesla chargers down US13 at the Royal Farms stations.

[ArdWrknTrk]

Because, like I said, these pickups are made for work, not screwing around on trails or pulling your toy hauler on vacation.

IT'S RIGHT THERE IN THE NAME!
I'm not sure what you're missing.

[ArdWrknTrk]

Right, and with all the car manufacturer is now going to the "North American Charging Standard" those chargers will be useful for all kinds of vehicles....

The tradesman vehicles get used 8 hours a day which means they have 16 hours to sit plugged in...

So the manufacturers economize by using smaller charge controllers and slower battery chemistries...

[ArdWrknTrk]

Plenty of open spaces, and these chargers are never broken.

But that's not really the point.
With V2H you charge at home (or can use the car in the case of a "rolling blackout"..)

You never have to stop for gas or waste that time.
Vehicles are quiet and have ferocious acceleration.

[Nothing Special]

I'm not really a big fan of electric vehicles, but a lot of that is probably because you can't get one from the '90s or earlier, and I'm not really a big fan of any vehicle from this millennia!  But I do have a friend who has a Nissan Leaf and a Tesla.  He likes the Leaf but loves the Tesla.  He has about a 40 mile drive each way to work.  The Leaf can easily make that in the summer, but he can't run the heater as much as he might like to confidently get to work and back on a cold winter day.  The Tesla will easily make that.

As far as long road trips, like Jim says, my friend's experience has been that he needs to stop at least as often as the Tesla does, and typically when he's ready to leave the car is too.

On the other hand, my dad has a friend with an EV and his experience has been that too often he'll get to a charging station and will have to wait his turn.  That makes the stops longer than typical gas stops and he's not a big fan.  But that hasn't been an issue for my friend.  I guess it depends on where you are, and obviously the infrastructure is still being built up.

As far as trucks go, I certainly get that all-electric can be a good fit for in-town commercial use, where the truck will have a lot of start-stops, and a lot of low speed driving during the day and then sit overnight.

But for personal pickups?  It's not a great fit.  But then again, personal pickups aren't a great fit to start with!  Who can justify driving a heavy brick as a commuter car?  Or on family vacations?  It's just the wrong vehicle for most of the jobs it's used for.  But still we do it because gas is still pretty cheap and very energy-dense, so it's not that bad to pay our way past the bad decision to have a pickup.

I do think there will be a fair amount of social re-engineering needed to get EVs to completely catch on.  We won't be able to pull an 8,000 lb trailer, or drive a motorhome across the country.  Right now giving up those "rights" seems unthinkable (and I'm certainly not ready to!).  But I bet that's coming.

And even city commuting.  Sure it's cheap and easy to charge your car during off-peak times so you can drive it to work the next day.  But what about if everyone is doing it?  "Off-peak" will end up being during the day time!  And how about large apartment complexes?  Will there be enough charging stations for everyone there?  I'm betting that we'll need more of that social re-engineering to get more people to use mass transit to make that workable.  But again, the way we do it now really doesn't make sense, we ought to be using more mass transit.  But I don't want to, so I keep driving my 3/4 ton crew cab as a commuter car.